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Earth-Crossover

Tupka217

There's pretty much concensus we're not going to work with "Earth-Crossover".

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06:41, April 30, 2013
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- SeanWheeler
  
  That's a really late response considering that I made the Earth-Crossover page a year ago, and it's still there. the talk page ended with me. We have pages for Superman and Batman. Also should we really believe that Marvel characters share the same Earth as DC when there are comics where they actually travel to the other universe? Marvel assigned a reality number to those crossovers, and I don't think DC characters were familiar with the Earth-616 characters, despite meeting the Earth-7642. If there are crossovers that imply that Marvel and DC share the same universe and other crossovers where they actually go to the other universe, then there must be an Earth that those two companies share the same universe and Marvel identified it as MDP:Earth-7642 in the MDP:Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z Vol 1 3.
  
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  Edited by SeanWheeler 18:14, April 30, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  It's an intercompany crossover, which means normal multiverse is useless. It's, in most cases, the most recognizable version of the character, a non-canon (or shady-canon) tale of the (then-current) mainstream version, or, in this case, the SBG-continuity. There are many crossovers, not just with Marvel, but with Dark Horse, Image and whatnot. A 70s Superman/Spider-Man crossover is Earth-One, not the same universe as a 90s Superman/Aliens story. Besides, we want to get rid of the "Earth-Whatever" fanon names.
  
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  15:25, April 30, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  When Archie met the Punisher, that was considered Earth-7642.
  
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  18:05, April 30, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  neither Archie nor the Punisher are DC characters. What is that comment germane to?
  
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  19:02, April 30, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  We don't use Marvel universe designation names for DC characters.
  
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  19:18, April 30, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  reply to #5
  
  Hatebunny wrote: neither Archie nor the Punisher are DC characters. What is that comment germane to?
  
  Well, Tupka said DC has crossed-over with Dark Horse and Image Comics and I found this article on Marvel Database: mdp:Archibald Andrews (Earth-7642). I marked him for deletion because the article went against the rules about crossover characters (Marvel Database doesn't have pages on Capcom or DC). So I guess these comic book crossovers that implies that the companies share the same universe could have this universe. New Earth and Marvel heroes first met in DC vs. Marvel. All previous crossovers took place in this Earth we're talking about now. Crossovers require agreement and cooperation between two companies. If Marvel numbered it, than it must be an Elseworld to DC. Otherwise they would be bad stories if the people working on them couldn't agree to one thing.
  
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  21:55, April 30, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  reply to #7
  
  SeanWheeler wrote: Otherwise they would be bad stories if the people working on them couldn't agree to one thing.
  
  We have a winner.
  
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  21:58, April 30, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  DC/Marvel Crossovers existed well before DC vs Marvel. But that's irrelevant. We do not care about Marvel Earth-Numbers, as they work on an entirely different naming system.
  Marvel and DC are different companies, with diferent attitudes towards alternate earths. They don't match, they don't HAVE to match in order for there to be a story to tell.
  
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  22:04, April 30, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  Yeah, they did exist before DC vs. Marvel (such as Superman vs The Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 1) but those crossovers weren't canon to New Earth (or Earth-One for the comics of that era). In DC Versus Marvel, weren't they unfamiliar with the characters from the other universe? Did they remember the previous crossovers? If not, then they didn't meet in New Earth until DC vs. Marvel. They met in Elseworlds stories.
  
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  Edited by SeanWheeler 19:56, May 3, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  Elseworlds stories are stories specifically labeled as Elseworlds. Only one crossover is, to my knowledge, an elseworld - an existing Elseworld. Batman v Cap.
  By our current policy, crossovers are non-canon or semi-canon adventures of the then-mainstream version. As they are clearly intended to be the most popular character.
  Unless we've got clarity from DC (NOT Marvel) on the matter that explains it differently, there's no reason to change this policy.
  
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  22:31, April 30, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  So maybe they are not official Elseworlds but canon or not, New Earth doesn't have Marvel characters. Look at Superman vs The Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 1. How did Doc Ock and Lex Luthor end up at the same prison? What is this Metropolition Museum in New York? Oh, never mind, that museum is canon in the Marvel Universe, but it suspiciously sounded like Metropolis. But how did Clark Kent and Lois Lane end up in the same conference as Peter Parker and Mary Jane? Was there any world merge or teleportation device? The article doesn't mention that. In fact the notes section states that "In the introduction to Crossover Classics, which contains the story 'The Battle of the Century!', Gerry Conway states 'Purists may complain that we never explained how Superman and Spider-Man ended up in the same 'universe'...; to our minds, how they got there was beside the point.'" But the Marvel appendix listed that universe as Earth-7642. So Marvel has a better explanation than we do. The next crossover is in mdp:Marvel Treasury Edition Vol 1 28 which has the synopsis "Spider-Man runs across a deadly plan and enlists Superman to help." Okay, so how does he call Superman? That synopsis is way to short. It doesn't mention anything about transporting between worlds. Someone need to expand the synopsis. In DC Special Series Vol 1 27 Bruce Banner was working in Wayne Tech. What? Since when does Banner work for Wayne? You can't start a story with a Marvel character working in a DC company. In mdp:Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans Vol 1 1, Dark Phoenix warned Raven of a catastrophe in her dream (and in the dreams of the other X-Men). Well in the Justice League episode Legends, J'onn J'onzz speculated the writers of the Justice Guild comics might have had a subconscious psychic link to the Justice Guild universe, so a psychic link between Raven and Jean Grey can still be plausible. But how did Starfire know the history of Dark Phoenix? In a crossover where worlds collide, people on one side shouldn't know anything about the other universe. And the synopsis again didn't reveal how Teen Titans and X-Men ended up on the same Earth. In Batman and Punisher: Lake of Fire Vol 1 1, how did Punisher team up with Jean-Paul Valley? The trivia even says crossover comics are noncanon, but Azrael mentioned Jigsaw by name in a later Batman comic. However, it was explained that he is insane. mdp:Punisher and Batman: Deadly Nights Vol 1 1 has Punisher and Batman (Bruce Wayne this time) meet without explanation on how they ended up in the same Earth. In Darkseid vs Galactus: The Hunger Vol 1 1, Galactus wanted to eat Apokolips. Since he is a planet eater, I guess maybe he can head to another universe. That comic synopsis didn't mention Earth, and Earth wasn't in the appearances section. In mdp:Spider-Man and Batman Vol 1 1, they had dreams that contradict both characters' origin. Ben Parker killed by the Joker (even though the burgler from Amazing Fantasy 15 looking nothing like a clown) and Bruce's parents murdered by Carnage instead of the gunman Joe Chill. Spidey never fought the Joker and Batman never fought Carnage, so why would those two villains be in the other hero's dream? And the same two doctors Ashley Kefka and Cassandra Briar appeared in Ravencroft and Arkham. I never heard of Ravencroft Institute, but Spidey was visiting and Carnage was imprisoned there. Carnage was taken to Arkham and Spidey arrived at Gotham to help Batman. How? Green Lantern Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances Vol 1 1 doesn't have a synopsis. mdp:Silver Surfer / Superman Vol 1 1 is pretty much blank. Batman and Captain America Vol 1 1 said Cap and Buck was ordered on a secret mission and they ran across Batman and Robin. How did those four meet? In mdp:Daredevil / Batman Vol 1 1 how did they meet? In another Batman and Spider-Man Vol 1 1 crossover, how did they meet again? In Superman Fantastic Four Vol 1 1, how did Superman meet the Fantastic Four? In mdp:Incredible Hulk vs. Superman Vol 1 1, how did Superman meet the Hulk? How did Batman meet Daredevil again in Batman Daredevil: King of New York Vol 1 1? If you thought DC and Marvel shared the same universe, what about these crossovers: DC Versus Marvel Vol 1 1 actually had a box that transports people between parallel universes which was how Spider-Man and Juggernaut ended up in the DC Universe. That is proof that the DC and Marvel Universe are different, and that those previously mentioned crossovers where they seemed to share the same universe is an alternate Earth! Between Round 3 and 4 we get the Amalgam Universe which merged the two universes including their characters to get people like Dark Claw and Super-Soldier, and they separate in Round 4. In All Access Vol 1, wheres the synopsis? Man, people aren't giving synopsis. Neither is there a Synopsis written on the mdp:Unlimited Access Vol 1. JLA/Avengers Vol 1 is a Multiverse story, and the Krona egg was important later, making JLA/Avengers canon, so the crossovers with the sci-fi explanation take place on New Earth and Earth-616 and the crossovers where the two companies seem to share the same universe is a totally different Earth. Marvel even confirmed it. Did DC say anything about the crossovers being on New Earth? I don't think so. And we can't always rely on DC to name a reality because of the mess they made with the New 52. At first, they said it is just an altered timeline to New Earth, but they recently said the New 52 takes place on Prime Earth causing a huge mess of all this time putting New 52 stuff in New Earth articles, even though people could already tell that it can't be New Earth. What butterfly effect would rename Captain Marvel Shazam? And what about the game Injustice: Gods Among Us. How were we supposed to know that there were two Earths in the game? None of the trailers showed it. The tie-in comic took place only in the Regime Earth. Not even the Green Lantern trailer told us, even though it had Green Lantern fighting Yellow Lantern. Yellow Lantern could have been a clone, but it turned out to be an Alternate Earth. No promotional material said there was going to be two Earth's. They only implied that heroes such as Superman became threats. We thought it was going to be Batman who defeats Superman in the end, but really it was a Superman from another Earth. Who would have thought that? Now for Marvel, they use numbers for each reality. At least the mainstream Marvel Universe stayed consistently Earth-616. No major reboots or renumbering. While Marvel does renumber some realities (ie the reality of Wolverine and the X-Men and Avengers: EMH Earth-80920 to Earth-8096 with 80920 remaining as the apoclyptic future) they didn't do anything major like rebooting the Marvel Universe, saying the new universe is just a reworked timeline for 616, and then renumber it like DC did with Prime Earth, or hiding a game's two Earth's until release despite being a major part of the story, like Injustice. Marvel seems more credible in handling its realities than DC has been lately. Did DC even claim that those non-canon crossovers are part of New Earth?
  
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  Edited by SeanWheeler 00:15, May 4, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  I'm sorry, but I'm not going to read a long, unorganized screed this early in the morning.
  Short answer: everything can be explained by the reality-bending force known as profit.
  
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  07:23, May 4, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  To summarize, most of the Marvel/DC Crossovers depict the DC and Marvel characters living on the same Earth, while the canon ones actually have a sci-fi way of those characters going to the other universe. And after lying about Prime Earth being New Earth for a while, which made a mess of this wiki, it is harder to trust DC to keep track of their own realities.
  
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  13:29, May 7, 2013
  
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- Spencerz
  
  A little "two cents" from the Marvel side, since Sean also posted in our forums about the DC/Marvel crossovers at the same time this thread was started. For good reason, no one got around to responding until now.
  Marvel does in fact treat a number of the cross over stories mentioned as a separate reality from "Earth-616". our mainstream universe, called Earth-7642; and yes, characters from all companies appear to have existed together in this reality since time began.
  That being said, this reality is also a pretty bad one for basing arguments on, since it really is a dues ex machina; in other words, it's a neat little catch-all reality for the Marvel handbook writers to tie up a number of lose ends while simultaneously categorizing (and canon-izing) a couple dozen fringe issues in one large swoop. (And if you read the Marvel Appendix entry for Earth-7642, you'll see that even the handbook writers themselves have issues sorting out the continuity of said reality).
  On top of that, this reality is very much Marvel-centric; the majority of the crossovers were done with Marvel and companies other than DC (or that were independent of DC at the time of publication), like Image, Dark Horse, Top Cow, Archie Comics, Wildstorm, and Extreme Studios/Maximum Press, none of which would need to be here. For example, having to make note of the Witchblade/Wolverine crossover's place in the history of this universe would be just plain out of place on a DC site.
  Even still, DC and Marvel both carry different views on the canon of these crossovers: Issues that the Marvel writers declare apart of Earth-7642/"Earth-Crossover", and removed from the mainstream continuity of both companies, have been referenced in future DC issues set in the main DC universe of the time (Batman/Punisher and X-Men/New Teen Titans are both examples of this). Meanwhile, Marvel stories have consistently featured a clear separation of these crossovers from Earth-616, with mainstream characters witnessing glimpses of the events as "a glimpse into another world".
  But even if you want to over-look all of that info, the simplest of solutions is one you've had trouble grasping since you started contributing, Sean:
  The DC Database Project and the Marvel Database Project, much like their respective companies, are completely different entities.
  Not sure how to make that any clearer, except to try using bold text. The sites do work together, and they do and have shared contributors and staff alike; but the fact still remains that they are both two different sites at the end of the day. The fact that one side does something does not mean the other side automatically has to do it the same way. And taking a fundamental structure of one side (Marvel's Multiverse and its Earth-Numbering system) and trying to shoe-horn it around the other side is simply a time-waster.
  TL;DR: I'm likely repeating things the DC guys have tried to explain to you already. The bottom line is, as Tupka pointed out, is that money was made, canon be damned, and you're trying really hard to quantify and rationalize something that even it's own creators didn't care to quantify or rationalize, and it's not worth the effort.
  
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  Edited by Spencerz 07:57, May 8, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  Jean-Paul was only able to mention Jigsaw because he was growing insane. But when in New Earth did someone reference the events of Uncanny X-Men/New Teen Titans. I do know that Marvel and DC are two different companies. And the DC and Marvel Databases are two different sites. I have noticed a few differences between them. But many stories that are noncanon to New Earth get their own universes. There maybe a few that don't get their universes, but still, saying those crossovers are in a different universe is a better explanation than saying in some comics the DC and Marvel heroes live on the same Earth while in others the DC and Marvel heroes live on two separate Earths. That is a big contradiction. It seems that Marvel is organizing their realities better than DC but saying they are screwing canon for profit is a way to give up taking DC seriously. We are a DC fansite, written from an in-universe perspective. If we give up taking DC seriously, how are our contributers and readers going to treat us? And screwing canon is a bad way to make profit because it confuses the readers. Confusion leads to boredom. Boredom leads to stop reading. Lack of reading, leads to poor sales.
  
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  20:18, May 8, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  It's hardly accurate to call these crossovers canon. It's hardly accurate to say that they are something worth taking seriously.
  Frankly, we don't care about how they're handled (apart from hating the name Earth-Crossover), because we don't care at all about those crossovers.
  'Cause they were all terrible. 'Cause they were gimmicky crap. 'Cause they don't actually have any effect on mainstream comics, because they're not treated as canon.
  
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  20:23, May 8, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  Sean, I'm sure you must by now realize we don't agree with you. I'll delete the Earth-Crossover pages and everything related to them. We're not going for them.
  
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  20:30, May 8, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  Okay, fine. Now that you deleted those pages, I'll just correct the links to say (Earth-One) or (New Earth) or whatever for the DC characters. But the Marvel characters will still be linked as (Earth-7642) instead of (Earth-616) because we're still linking to a separate site and we won't use appearance templates for non-DC characters.
  
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  21:59, May 8, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  Or we should just link to the disambiguation pages.
  
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  22:01, May 8, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  Link what to the disambiguation pages? Our DC characters, or the Marvel Database's disambiguation pages? And by the way, why did you wait a whole year later to delete those crossover pages?
  
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  22:06, May 8, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  The Marvel characters.
  I waited a whole year as discussion was not yet resolved. It is now. Or, more accurately, I kinda forgot.
  
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  22:08, May 8, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  see also, don't care.
  
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  22:13, May 8, 2013
  
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I don't know how you missed this:

Hatebunny

But read the flippin' community message. It's there on the right of the recent activity feed.
Do not create prime earth pages for characters who existed pre-flashpoint. Especially Batman, and especially none of the characters whose pagenames use the "Codename (Real Name)" format.

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Edited by Hatebunny 20:00, April 4, 2013
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- Hatebunny
  
  also this might help to clarify.
  
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  20:02, April 4, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  Maybe I've been spending more time on the Marvel Database that I missed the highlighted message. I only found out about Prime Earth yesterday. About time you finally realized that the New 52 is a separate universe from New Earth. Now we have a mess for you guys to clean up. (What? you said "keep your told-you-so's to your own pages" and this is my talk page.) How often does a timeline change stay the same universe?
  
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  03:13, April 5, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  I figured out it wasn't the same universe pretty early on. The problem of how to handle it in a way that works for the wiki in terms of coding and and doing it in a way that isn't confusing for people who aren't reading mainstream comics has been the trouble.
  
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  Edited by Hatebunny 03:26, April 5, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  (asking suspiciously): How early?
  
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  03:31, April 5, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  About when it turned out the Huntress was from Earth 2.
  
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  03:49, April 5, 2013
  
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- SeanWheeler
  
  That was in 2011. Why were you defending the new universe as still New Earth? You even made a diagram of the timeline in the DCnU talk page.
  
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  13:23, April 5, 2013
  
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- Hatebunny
  
  That was 2012. About June. And I did make that diagram, because it makes sense. What DC did doesn't make sense. But we're going along with it anyway.
  
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  13:28, April 5, 2013
  
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- Kyletheobald
  
  Look, it wasn't a personal vendetta against you or any other user. We tried to do what was best for the site and at the time DC was still claiming things were the same. They either lied or stopped caring about keeping it the same. That left us in the lurch. We're trying to come up with a solution that works now. So get on board or don't but its time to drop this.
  
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  13:38, April 6, 2013
  
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Teen Titans Moves

Kyletheobald

Do you have a source that gives their real names? I'm not saying you're wrong but I never remember them being given and I'm pretty sure if they had been, we'd have already moved them.

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00:08, February 17, 2013
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- SeanWheeler
  
  For Robin, see his page. Also Teen Titans Go Vol 1 47 outright confirms his identity, I think. I didn't read that issue, but you can try to find it in a comic book store. Also, in one episode, Robin's Bat-Mite counterpart Larry's real name is Nosyarg Kcid (Dick Grayson spelled backwards). The name even scrolled across the screen and flipped, showing "Dick Grayson" in that episode. Robin had even assumed the role of Nightwing in one episode. I think Robin (Earth-Teen Titans) should be moved to Richard Grayson (Earth-Teen Titans). Starfire, well her name is an English translation of her alien name "Koriand'r". And while Galfore was shouting in Tamaran in Betrothed, he called Starfire "Koriand'r." Beast Boy, his Teen Titans page is already Garfield Logan (Earth-Teen Titans). Cyborg, well his alias "Stone" references his last name. Brother Blood even called him Mr. Stone. However, he only used that name to infiltrate H.I.V.E. Academy, but it is still a clue to who he was originally. Raven, well her last name was never revealed in the series, so she could stay as she is. If someone were to call her "Raven Roth (Earth-Teen Titans)" fine with me, but it would be discouraged because even on Teen Titans Wiki, her real name is listed as "Raven" while her teammates real names used their New Earth real names. Also, some Page titles were based on speculation, such as Bartholomew Allen (Earth-Mortal Kombat). Flash wasn't referred to as Barry Allen in Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe.
  
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  23:42, February 19, 2013
  
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- Kyletheobald
  
  If you have sources, that's fine. Its up to you to provide them though. You can't suggest something and then tell me to find that comic in a comic store to see if you are right.
  
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  02:51, February 20, 2013
  
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- Haroldrocks
  
  He's right on Robin, Starfire, and Beast Boy. Cyborg's "Stone" identity is interesting, but I think it's just a coincidence. Afterall, that's going going pretty far to make a reference in a kid's television show, right? And, Raven's name was never revealed.
  
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  10:58, February 20, 2013
  
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- Tupka217
  
  Agree on Robin and Beast Boy. I've never paid a lot of attention to what Galfore has to say, but a lot of people think he calles her Koriand'r. Some verification would be nice.
  
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  13:57, February 20, 2013
  
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- Haroldrocks
  
  I started looking into it. I may be wrong, though. Galfore calls her, "Princess Starfire" during his introduction. I'll continue watching the episode and see.
  
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Location Template

Midoki24

Sean, where are you going with this Database Wiki:Location Template? We already have a location template at DC Database:Location Template.

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00:01, September 7, 2012
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- SeanWheeler
  
  So that's where it went. Sorry, that was supposed to be for Database Wiki, but there was a mistake in the copying and pasting. The template wasn't supposed to be here. I pasted it in the wrong place. The Database Wiki templates come from the DC Database. If you find any more Database Wiki templates posted here by mistake, let me know. I'll try to pay more attention when copying templates.
  
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Images, Part III

Tupka217

Hello!
Thank you for uploading new content to the DC Database project!

We have lots of images in our database, 89,278 in fact, and in order to keep them organized we use a system of naming, categories and licensing added to each.

Please review our Naming Conventions for Images. Images are categorized by name, so a descriptive name rather than a string of numbers is important.
As a guide, look what other images in a character's gallery are called, and continue with the same name and number. If you upload a first image of a character, use "[Name] [Universe] 001". Ignore the Universe designation if it is a New Earth character.
Issue covers should be given at least the title of the series, the volume and the number. A name similar to the issue is preferred: "Title Vol 1 1". Textless covers should be called "Title Vol 1 1 Textless". Files that do not indicate the issue number will be deleted.

Add the Image Template to the images you upload. This is mandatory. Fill it in as detailed here, or below.
Selecting the proper license is vital to properly maintaining our images. Please choose the license which best describes the image you are uploading. The most commonly used are 'Comic Single Panel' and 'Comic Cover', respectively.

Other fields that should be filled in: Issue, Subject1, Artist. Add Source if you've taken it from a different site. If you've taken it from a different site and don't know the issue, DO NOT UPLOAD IT.

In addition, please take a moment to review our policies page and more specifically our image policy.

Questions can be directed to any of our admins, or asked on our forums.

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22:30, August 12, 2012

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Tupka217

Read the above - it's compulsory. If you have any questions, just ask any of the administrators.

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22:39, August 12, 2012
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Delete

Tupka217

Please refrain from adding the delete template to licensed characters. The discussion is not over, and not going your way.

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19:05, August 12, 2012
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Images II

Kyletheobald

Hello!
Thank you for uploading new content to the DC Database project!

We have lots of images in our database, 89,278 in fact, and in order to keep them organized we use a system of naming, categories and licensing added to each.

Please review our Naming Conventions for Images. Images are categorized by name, so a descriptive name rather than a string of numbers is important.
As a guide, look what other images in a character's gallery are called, and continue with the same name and number. If you upload a first image of a character, use "[Name] [Universe] 001". Ignore the Universe designation if it is a New Earth character.
Issue covers should be given at least the title of the series, the volume and the number. A name similar to the issue is preferred: "Title Vol 1 1". Textless covers should be called "Title Vol 1 1 Textless". Files that do not indicate the issue number will be deleted.

Add the Image Template to the images you upload. This is mandatory. Fill it in as detailed here, or below.
Selecting the proper license is vital to properly maintaining our images. Please choose the license which best describes the image you are uploading. The most commonly used are 'Comic Single Panel' and 'Comic Cover', respectively.

Other fields that should be filled in: Issue, Subject1, Artist. Add Source if you've taken it from a different site. If you've taken it from a different site and don't know the issue, DO NOT UPLOAD IT.

In addition, please take a moment to review our policies page and more specifically our image policy.

Questions can be directed to any of our admins, or asked on our forums.

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01:01, May 24, 2012

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Template:M

Tupka217

A severe change to the category structure requires discussion first.

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19:16, May 8, 2012
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Evanston, Illinois

Tupka217

For local comics stores, try the Comic store locator. Here's a store for Evanston: Comix Revolution
Or, you can order online editions at Comixology.

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19:39, April 5, 2012
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DCnU

Kyletheobald

Look, if you aren't happy with the way we're running the site, find a different one. We have decided on a course of action and all your comments and complaints aren't going to change it. *If* we ever decided it does need changed, you won't have been the reason. All you are doing now is creating enemies and making people mad. So, either start contributing to the direction the site is going or go to a different wikia. That's all we ask from anybody.

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18:34, April 5, 2012
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- SeanWheeler
  
  I'm not the only one complaining.
  
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  19:24, April 5, 2012
  
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- Kyletheobald
  
  No you aren't. But most of the others have realized their complaining isn't going to change the strategy of the whole site and either found somewhere else to contribute or have started working on it this way.
  
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  02:15, April 6, 2012
  
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SeanWheeler

SeanWheeler's Earned Badges (26)

Batman

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