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  • As per the community messages, do not make Prime Earth pages for the Bat-Family, or any other character who existed before flashpoint.

    We're not going to go and delete the ones that have already been made (at the moment), but the administrators are working on the policy that is related to those characters, and making pages for them just clutters the process.

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    • ok

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    • Fine. Nice deliverance, too.

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    • You'll get used to him being sardonic if you stick around but the message is valid. Until we sort out the strategy, its best to stick to other edits.

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    • will do.

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    • Sounds good to me.

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    • Roger that

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    • Just so those of us who are unsure can now be sure, prime earth is the current DCnU earth correct?

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    • Yes. Initially, we were going to treat the New 52 versions of characters as the same versions as before. Some of the characters, however, were too different to leave it like that.

      The Bat-Family and Green Lanterns in particular are problematic, because they are hardly changed at all, which is why it takes a lot more work to figure out how we're going to deal with them. It's both a coding issue and a practical one.

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    • Why not just seperate the timelines? Everything up to Flashpoint and then evreything after.

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    • I prefer the New Earth version of the characters than the Prime Earth anyway so sound good to me.

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    • Eleanorfleming wrote: I prefer the New Earth version of the characters than the Prime Earth anyway so sound good to me.

      So do I, but frankly, it's irrelevant. Frankly, and sadly too.

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    • will do

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    • What exactly is Prime Earth?

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    • its the new version of new earth after flashpoint

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    • And when exactly was that designation coined?

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    • okay.

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    • Leader Vladimir wrote: And when exactly was that designation coined?

      I was wondering the same thing.

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    • I think Prime-Earth would really be confuse with Earth-Prime. I was thinking of going for New 52. Ex. "Kal-El (New 52)".

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    • I beg to disagree. Your Prime Earth/Earth-Prime example is no more confusing than Earth-Two, Earth-2, or Earth 2. Consistency is the key.

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    • Lucien61 wrote: I beg to disagree. Your Prime Earth/Earth-Prime example is no more confusing than Earth-Two, Earth-2, or Earth 2. Consistency is the key.

      That's more confusing, actually. And besides, we've already gone for Prime Earth.

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    • I agree with (New 52) that should be easy to understand since so far it's right on the cover of every issue. (Though personally, I think when DC figures out ppl want things back the old way, they will be like "oops just kidding" kind of like what that other company did back in the 90s with their Apocalypse Universe of their X-books. Either that or run both universes simtaniously to give the classic fans a choice.)

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    • The powers that be at DC called it Prime Earth. That is the universe's name. And that's what we're going to call it. We've already done the majority of pages, so we're not going to change it again. Not without some more compelling arguments.

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    • So does that mean there will be, and/or we should create pages for and pictures for Earth Prime charecters?

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    • It means that SOME characters have Prime Earth pages, and some don't.

      Only an administrator is allowed to make a new page for a character who already existed before the relaunch, unless you are given some kind of special permission.

      Anyone can make a new page for a character who is completely new, and first appeared after September, 2011.

      The reason we are restricting the creation of these pages right now, is because we have too many issues to work out in terms of how to present those pages right now. Using our historical approach means that continuity takes a back seat.

      While many of us are pretty hardcore comic book readers, not all of the wiki's readers are, and we have to be able to present the site in an accessible way that will not be confusing for new and casual readers.

      We are certainly working on solutions for this, and having long arguments about it.

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    • Hatebunny wrote: The reason we are restricting the creation of these pages right now, is because we have too many issues to work out in terms of how to present those pages right now. Using our historical approach means that continuity takes a back seat.

      Another reason is that it requires a lot of extra edits: splitting images and galleries, renaming appearances, piecing out infobox info and powers and abilities, updating the disambiguation pages. If everyone just made pages we'd have to do 90% procent of the work anyway. If someone would go on an edit bender and create pages for the entire Legion of Super-Heroes, we'd be swamped.

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    • I agree with this approach right now, just so long as the Prime Earth summaries for the pre-New 52 character isn't too long. At some point this will have to be done since it wouldn't be a smart choice to leave those pages to become too long and difficult to navigate. With Batman and Green Lantern it be a low priority, but with Superman it would be smarter to create a new page for him quickly since his history has been drastically changed in the New 52.

      Besides the New 52 hasn't lasted at least 2 full years yet so it is better to wait for the moment until the new pages are truly needed. On a final note I do agree with the new Tim Drake page since his past history as Robin was completely removed in the New 52 and it's easier to navigate that way to make it less confusing for new readers.

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    • The biggest issue with creating a new Superman page right now is trying to decipher exactly what the heck happened in Grant Morrison's Action Comics (Volume 2). But I'm... working on that.

      Right now, we are trying to work out which characters (like Tim Drake) are absolutely different from their previous incarnations. That's why we're gradually making new pages for SOME characters - but we're leaving this to the administrators right now, for the reasons Tupka mentioned, and because people aren't showing the degree of judgment required to determine which characters fit those criteria - which is why I made this post in the first place, sad though it is.

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    • Other than his appearance has there been drastic changes to Krypto?

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    • Hatebunny wrote: The biggest issue with creating a new Superman page right now is trying to decipher exactly what the heck happened in Grant Morrison's {vnst|Action Comics Vol 2}}.

      But I'm... working on that.

      I could try and help with that. I know I said I was having a problem following it the other day but I think I may have figured it out.

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    • Hatebunny wrote: The biggest issue with creating a new Superman page right now is trying to decipher exactly what the heck happened in Grant Morrison's {vnst|Action Comics Vol 2}}. But I'm... working on that.

      Right now, we are trying to work out which characters (like Tim Drake) are absolutely different from their previous incarnations. That's why we're gradually making new pages for SOME characters - but we're leaving this to the administrators right now, for the reasons Tupka mentioned, and because people aren't showing the degree of judgment required to determine which characters fit those criteria - which is why I made this post in the first place, sad though it is.

      Well I completely agree with that since I know I am not qualified for creating new pages like that which is why I am mostly staying out of this debate. Article modification is more my style, creating or adding in templates is not as much.

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    • -Yes. Initially, we were going to treat the New 52 versions of characters as the same versions as before. Some of the characters, however, were too different to leave it like that.-

      Ah, I warned there'd be a problem with that. Well, let's do our best to sort things out!

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    • No problem, amigo

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    • Well sounds reasonable enough. Alright, no works on Prime universe posts

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    • and whats your point bunny wabbit,

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    • sure ok

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    • Some people are just blind!

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    • Whoa... Okay, somebody clue me in real quick: Prime Earth vs. New Earth, the major differences. Beast Boy is still green in New Earth and he's red in Prime Earth, yes? If it's a really big deal, I might start a new thread. I'm new, hello everyone :)

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    • Everything after Flashpoint (Volume 2) #5 is Prime Earth. Much is the same, much is different.

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    • Diodacci wrote: Whoa... Okay, somebody clue me in real quick: Prime Earth vs. New Earth, the major differences. Beast Boy is still green in New Earth and he's red in Prime Earth, yes? If it's a really big deal, I might start a new thread. I'm new, hello everyone :)

      There are a lot of differences. Some significant, some less significant. Here's a few off the top of my head:

      • Black Canary is no longer Dinah Laurel Lance, she's now Dinah Drake (Lance by marriage).
      • Swamp Thing is Alec Holland, and not a vegetable that thinks he's Alec Holland
      • Tim Drake was never just "Robin", and has always been Red Robin.
      • This is the first time there has ever been a Teen Titans
      • Power Girl and Huntress come from Earth 2, and were the Supergirl and Robin of that universe.
      • Batman: Year One is now out of continuity.

      There's plenty more.

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      • Clark and Barry divorced their long time sweethearts.
      • Amanda Waller now has a military history instead of a political.
      • Catwoman is some 10-15 years younger.

      Others, like Hal Jordan, Hawk & Dove, Static, haven't changed much if at all.

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    • Tupka217 wrote:

      • Clark and Barry divorced their long time sweethearts.
      • Amanda Waller now has a military history instead of a political.

      Clark and Barry never were married to their longtime sweethearts, more like. Amanda Waller also lost... a lot of weight.

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    • Though in all fairness, Waller's origin change into a former military operative was added in the Green Lantern (Movie) tie-ins first.

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    • Why do you mean by this is the first time there is a Teen Titans?

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    • Diodacci wrote: Why do you mean by this is the first time there is a Teen Titans?

      Exactly what I said. The Teen Titans appearing in Teen Titans Vol 4 are the first team called the Teen Titans ever, in the Prime Earth reality.

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    • In other words, in Prime Earth, they are the first group to ever claim the title of Teen Titans, regardless of other realities/universes?

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    • Yes.

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    • Thank you :)

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      • Kyle Rayner was never sole GL, and the Guardians were never almost wiped out. Hal never went evil or Spectre. The number of GLs on Earth just slowly accumulated.
      • Barbara was the first and only Batgirl.
      • Renee Montoya was never the Question and may or may not have been Batwoman's girlfriend.
      • Starfire has memory issues.
      • The Amazons were evil, Wonder Woman instead of being blessed by goddesses as a power source is the daughter of Zeus and trained by Ares.
      • Tim Drake is not his original name, it's a name he adopted as a civie ID when he became Red Robin after criminals targeted his family and Batman witness-relocated him. He also didn't find out Batman's secret ID on his own.
      • Superheroes became big about 5 years ago, with Batman and Superman being active before that. Behind-the-scenes in secret, however, Stormwatch was active for a long time before them.
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    • Yes, sir.

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    • I'm not sure about this. It's hard to reconcile a lot of New Earth characters with their Prime Earth counterparts when their histories and origins are so contradictory. And on issue articles, we often have both Prime Earth character pages and Pre-Flashpoint character pages listed amongst the characters and that makes it confusing

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    • Cari1994- they aren't saying they're going to keep them together, just that they're working out a policy. I agree right now it's pretty confusing, but it's temporary.

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    • my my

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    • why so serious about it?

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    • FieldMagician wrote: why so serious about it?

      Because this is a very serious topic. This is no place to joke, if that's what you're doing.

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    • not sure if you got the reference...

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    • OK, cool np.

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    • FieldMagician wrote: not sure if you got the reference...

      I do understand the reference. But again, this is no place to be fooling around. And again, this is a serious topic. There's a reason why this thread was put on here.

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    • will do

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    • So be it...

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    • Related question: Flashpoint itself. Currently it's just shoved onto the New Earth pages, even though the characters are normally very different. We split that off too?

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    • No.

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    • I'd say 'yes.' Like with New Earth and Prime Earth, they're very different worlds with the characters being radically different.

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    • It's an altered timeline. There've been several in the past, with radical changes. But they're still those original characters. Just because they're not "turned back to normal" at the end of the story doesn't change that.

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    • .. it does mean they have a completely different personal history and set of characteristics, though. And by the same logic you'd have New Earth and Prime Earth characters together, and like this announcement right here said, we aren't doing that, for precisely this reason.

      To quote Hatebunny above, "Yes. Initially, we were going to treat the New 52 versions of characters as the same versions as before. Some of the characters, however, were too different to leave it like that."

      An alternate timeline creates an alternate world anyway. We have a Walter West (Dark Flash Saga) page.

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    • That's not the entire reason - it's also because DC treats it as a new universe.

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    • That's how they treat significantly altered timelines in general, yes, that is what I'm saying.

      Not giving a big different world it's own pages, even when the characters, like, 90% of the time have different personalities and histories than the originals (Captain Marvel is 6 people!), just because it's made with time travel, when alternate worlds including Prime Earth are explicitly made with time travel, seems splitting hairs pretty thin.

      Also, look at the pages of Wonder Woman, Superman, Captain Marvel, or what have you. Note how Flashpoint is the only alternate universe with a section within them. Rather than like before, when we have New and Prime as well, Flashpoint is the sole singular version done this way. It's a rule that we've decided not to apply to the New52, and it only seems to be applied to one timeline period, so what's the point of it?

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    • Theoretically speaking, every altered timeline (there were a load in Booster Gold, some in Superman/Batman and probably more) warrants a section on the character history. That Flashpoint is recent, has been given a lot of attention, and is often the only one described, does not change that. Neither does it make it special.

      The New 52's origins through time travel is what made us hesitant to split it off at first. But we decided to make separate pages as DC now seems to consider it a new multiverse. And even that has some problems (Earth-16 and Earth-40 continue on in the old 52 multiverse). It's an exception. An exception that proves the rule. Not a new rule that states every altered timeline should have character pages solely based on how different they are from the last version.

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    • It's big and has it's own unique history, setting, and characters, which *does* make it special.

      I again refer you to Hatebunny's post on the reason for Prime- "Some of the characters, however, were too different to leave it like that." Exact quote, how different the characters are matters. When some characters are different alignments with different histories, and other characters are six characters, that's pretty darn different.


      Also, not "often only." "Is only." It's a policy of precisely one timeline at this point. No other alt timelines are folded into the main article. Either they're worth their own article or they don't get any article. See the above linked Walter West page.

      "Exception that proves the rule," is a phrase that doesn't mean it's most common usage. It roughly means "An exception that *questions* or *tests* the rule." Which makes us ask ourself, 'what purpose does this rule serve?'. Right now, it mostly serves to make it harder to get Flashpoint data. I believe this exception has proven the rule wanting.

      When you have Prime and FP affected, then sure, it's a rule applied to multiple things. When only FP is affected, and there's multiple ones that don't use it, it's a pretty leaky 'rule'.

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    • "Exact quote, how different the characters are matters."

      Only if combined with other factors. Such as DC editors.

      "'"Exception that proves the rule,' is a phrase that doesn't mean it's most common usage."

      I know what the phrase means, and I meant it in its proper meaning. The fact that we're making an exception for PE means the policy of not treating alt timelines as separate from the mainstream version is still very much intact.

      "No other alt timelines are folded into the main article."

      Incorrect. They're just not described in detail.

      "it's a pretty leaky 'rule'."

      It's a rule that hasn't been worked out in detail (and, I note, hasn't even been written down anywhere, that doesn't help either), but it's a good rule. The only leaks are because of the vague nature these things sometimes have - "reality" is an illdefined term has been applied both to alt timelines and alt universes.

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    • "Incorrect. They're just not described in detail."

      Incorrect, no alternate version of a character shares the same article. If that version of a character *visits* a different timeline, it's mentioned, but there is only the one timeline that has the other version's bio in it.

      "It's a rule that hasn't been worked out in detail (and, I note, hasn't even been written down anywhere, that doesn't help either), but it's a good rule."

      Speaking of which, what's it's purpose? New and Prime were split up in part because they were too different. New Earth and FP are even more different, and someone looking for FP isn't likely to think to look under New Earth, so if someone not knowing the policy, which only applies to FP at the moment, tries looking for FP Wonder Woman, they're likely to just think there's no info on her here at all.

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    • Absolute Power, Vicious Cycle, Blue and Gold, Savage Time. Among others.

      The nature of timeline alteration is strange. Most of the time, these altered timelines are restored to the devergent point. The events still happened, and most people don't remember anything of it. Just because Flashpoint ended up tearing the universe apart doesn't make it special.

      I don't think this discussion will go anywhere. I can't speak for the others, but I see no reason to either change the policy, or make another exception to it.

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    • ... none of which have their Superman versions in the main Superman article or their Batman in the Batman article. Not a one.

      In the other direction, we have Walter West and Prime Earth and the characters from Justice League: The Nail Kal-El (The Nail).


      Flashpoint is 'special' in that the characters are significantly different than the baseline with their own histories and attitudes and even powers and some unique characters who already have their own pages. People have a reason to look them up. They aren't a 'five minutes into the future' alt timeline where things are identical except some event.


      A policy needs more than one example before it can have exceptions. We're talking about the status of one universe here either way, and it's outnumbered by timelines who do it the other direction.

      As for a reason to change it: It's easier to look up for people who want to look up the characters that way, and unclutters the New Earth pages.

      Look, maybe it'd help if you could explain why it's a good policy? I'd be more than willing to drop it if you could articulate the benefits.

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    • "... none of which have their Superman versions in the main Superman article or their Batman in the Batman article. Not a one."

      Your point? It warrants a mention, it's just that nobody wrote it down (yet?).

      "In the other direction, we have Walter West and Prime Earth and the characters from Justice League: The Nail Kal-El (The Nail)."

      Walter West is... well, I'm not entirely sure of his origins. But note that the designation was given in 2009, well before we had any clear policy on the matter. Prime Earth is, by editiorial decree, a new universe/multiverse. The Nail is an Elseworld (much like a What If?).

      The benefit is that it is, from a historical perspective, ACCURATE.

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    • Can somebody please tell me when was the current Earth first identified as Prime Earth?

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    • Thanks for posting this. As it is, until the continuity settles down, I'm sticking to working on characters that weren't in Flashpoint and aren't in Prime Earth.

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    • LatteRumor1 wrote: Thanks for posting this. As it is, until the continuity settles down, I'm sticking to working on characters that weren't in Flashpoint and aren't in Prime Earth.

      For the record, it's totally okay to make edits on Prime Earth pages that have already been made. We're just asking you all not to MAKE those pages if they don't already exist.

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    • Okay, so if I come across an existing character that desperately needs a new page, I'll just message the admins about it and wait for them to make the page.

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    • Well, that's a long list. We've already got that.

      If it's a minor, minor character, like all the League of Assassins mooks in Batman Incorporated, it's not a big deal. Make one, we don't nail you to a wall and yell obscenities at you. Just don't make more in short succession. Because with every page, we have to update links, change appearances, sort out images, and update the disambiguation page.

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    • Tupka217
      Tupka217 removed this reply because:
      17:27, May 15, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • Eleanorfleming wrote:

      So what did I do wrong this time ?

      This is not an appropriate place to ask this kind of question. Use his Message Wall. But, from what I can see - what you did wrong was fail to preview your edits to see that they don't work.

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    • Already working on an elaborate answer, removed the comment.

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    • "Your point? It warrants a mention, it's just that nobody wrote it down (yet?)."

      The point is we've got two different standards in use when it'd be easier for info-finding to use one.

      "Walter West is... well, I'm not entirely sure of his origins. But note that the designation was given in 2009, well before we had any clear policy on the matter. Prime Earth is, by editiorial decree, a new universe/multiverse. The Nail is an Elseworld (much like a What If?)."

      The Nail is specifically a world of what happens when there's a slight change to the base timeline, that is the concept.

      We've got three cases where it's done this way.


      "The benefit is that it is, from a historical perspective, ACCURATE."

      From a historical perspective, it's innately a completely different history.

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    • I promise, none of us are happy with the fact that we're in this transitional period.

      From what I remember, Walter West is from an alternate reality, not a possible future.

      Prime Earth is not a "slight change to the base timeline" - it is an entirely new timeline.

      As far as Flashpoint is concerned, I am in favour of having new pages for them, but making that happen would require getting a unanimous decision from the other admins.

      An important thing to note is that when the timeline changes in the MAINSTREAM books, it is not an "alternate timeline" it is THE timeline.

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    • -From what I remember, Walter West is from an alternate reality, not a possible future.-

      He's from a different timeline, i.e. specifically when something happens a bit different it branches off the original timeline, and it's possible to travel between them. Just like FP it's a difference in the past.

      Hypertime did put into canon that messing with the past forms new universes.


      -As far as Flashpoint is concerned, I am in favour of having new pages for them, but making that happen would require getting a unanimous decision from the other admins.-

      Here's hoping :) I've probably talked too much about it as-is.

      I would volunteer to do a lot of the grunt work making new pages.

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    • This is just my view of time, but if you can travel between two different versions of history, then the one that isn't the same as yours is not your timeline, because if something had changed in YOUR past, then it would be your present that changed, dig?

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    • Just saying how Hypertime works :)

      If you know Marvel, then think Age of Apocalypse. It's almost an identical situation real- change in the past (Legion instead of Barry), very different and bleaker world, and characters have traveled from it back and forth and such.


      Oh, just remember another DC one. Ever read the Supergirl story "Many Happy Returns" by Peter David? The last Linda Danvers one? Linda gets sent back in time for the purpose of altering things and saving a life... but in the end, she changes things, and it became a different timeline/universe. With the Spectre explicitly saying that's what happened, it was their past that he sent her to, but a change made it split off.

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    • A FANDOM user
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