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  • So... Rebirth.

    If I understand everything correctly:

    At Flashpoint, the timeline was so vulnerable Dr. Manhattan stole 10 years from it. Including Wally, who was stuck in the speed force... somehow. Manhattan made everyone forget about things that happened before? I'm not quite sure. Why 10 years? It's only been 5 years since Flashpoint. Also, why is Wally in a Kid Flash costume when it's established even in his own account that he's been Flash for years?

    Then, after Darkseid was destroyed at the end of Darkseid War, there was a flicker in reality that allowed Wally to break free from the Speed Force, and after the obligatory tour of the DCU, gets pulled out by Flash.

    Apparent changes:

    • Something something Superman. More will probably be revealed soon, but if he's not parallel Earth version, what is he? Time clone?
    • Who is that guy with him anyway? Destiny?
    • The JSA was shunted... somewhere... by Yz after the HUAC meeting and apparently forgotten about. They were a covert team in WWII, so it's possible not many heard of them anyway. Seems like a fairly painless retcon.
    • Dick goes back to Nightwing, but the Spyral stint still seems to be canon.
    • Nothing too major about Ted Kord, Linda Park, Kaldur and Ryan Choi. Seem to be just reintroductions.
    • So... the Scarab is magic after all?
    • Saturn Girl... waiting for more.
    • There was a past incarnation of the Titans after all. With Donna. Because no re- or deboot is complete without messing up Donna. I'm not up to date on Titans Hunt to know about the others.
    • Wally is now Daniel's son. I hope they've got an explanation coming for the change in fatherhood. He was clearly introduced as Rudy's son.
    • Wally and Barry remember Pre-Flashpoint. Does that mean New and Prime are one?
    • Doctor Manhattan is on Mars, but what's the deal with Ozymandias?

    I think it's clear we'll need to wait a while before we do anything drastic. Wiki-wise, the Superman mess and the Flash situation seem to be the biggest questions. Any thoughts/ideas?

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    • These are the most concerning ones to me:

      • The New/Prime is the most interesting. They're definitely not the same timeline, yet it seems like at some point right before flashpoint they were too similar, but not long before the event.
      • The Flash stuff is weird and extremely frustrating to understand. Simply put, it seems like there is no PE Barry Allen after all as the NE Barry didn't split in Flashpoint Vol 2 5. This would just mean that Barry's past history in New 52 is just a long-a** retcon, but we can't just treat it as such...
      • Supes is NE version until more is explained. Even he doesn't know who or what he is.

      That last point leads me to the conclusion:

      As you said, we have to wait, but to be more specific, we have to wait until all the Rebirth specials are out. Once those are available, we should consider start a different conversation. One with more facts and less questions.

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    • How much of Barry's history was changed? Most of his pre-career stuff was the same as Johns-era anyway, give or take some details.

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    • What comes to the top of my head right now is the old stuff: adoptive father story, (what was his name? Darrel?) the erased twin brother, (or at least unmentioned so far), the minor details of his origin, his introduction to the JL and of course, Wally, Iris and his involvement on the crises.

      The last ones are explained by Flashpoint and Manhattan taking away years and memories. We have assumed that Flashpoint was the disappearace of NE Barry, but Rebirth shows a different truth.

      Johns has pretty much treated his Flash consistently. Unfortunately, his flash was not just "his". There were 50 years of Flash before Johns and that's where the conflict starts.

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    • Remember, though, that Barry was brought back, Johns changed the character quite a bit to fit the New Earth continuity. In the Pre-Crisis timeline, his mother hadn't been killed by Reverse Flash and he had an entirely different life before his career as Flash. Also note that Barry and Eobard are two characters that have been time anomalies for a while now, starting way back with the time Eobard killed Iris, and I wouldn't be surprised if the reason Barry remembers Wally has little more explanation than "they're connected to the Speed Force", and him meeting Wally is what sparks his memory of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

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    • DC and/or Geoff seem to be trying to combine the Earth-One, New Earth and Prime Earth continuities for some reason as at the beginning of the Darkseid War arc they established that Metron and the Anti-Monitor that have appeared post-flashpoint are the some ones from prior to the crisis on infinite earths and have been able to remain unchanged from every reboot thanks to the chair and equation and now this whole thing with pre-flashpoint Wally and post-flashpoint Flash seems to be pushing that fact even harder.

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    • My understanding of the "10 years" comment is that the DCU must've been about 15 years into the "age of heroes" prior to Flashpoint. Using Batman as the standard, this roughly makes sense... he's usually assumed to be in his late 20's at the start of his career, which means he would've been around 45 when Flashpoint hit. Dick Grayson started around the age of 10 and was around 25 when Flashpoint hit. The timeline was reset so they were only 5 years into the age of heroes instead of 15.

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    • I think that Flashpoint changed every New Earth character into a Prime Earth character, regardless of similarities and shared origins. I think the Rebirth issue started with New Earth Wally floating through the Speed Force, looking down on the Prime Earth.

      As he got closer, his memories changed to match the Prime Earth, suddenly realizing that he always had a black cousin also named Wally. When New Earth Wally finally contacted Prime Earth Barry, Barry remembered the pre-Flashpoint world for just a second. Then when he pulled New Earth Wally out of the Speed Force, he then became Prime Earth Wally. And both Wally and Barry received new Prime Earth memories.

      I think that would be the easiest way to look at this post-Rebirth world. For the most part, the New 52 continuity continues, with only a few adjustments.

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    • None of rebirth is probably going to make any sense until we start to get to the end of it which won't be until 2018 since they've said the event will last for 2 years.

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    • Basically, it comes down to two choices

      Option 1: Continue the way the wiki is already structured by treating New Earth and Prime Earth as different realities. I agree with Dallinturner that this would be the much easier choice. It could just be agreed that the 10 missing years were taken from the Prime Earth characters with no connection to New Earth. Really all that would have to be done is to create Prime Earth profiles for characters like Wally West, Jean Loring, and Johnny Thunder.

      Option 2: The vastly more difficult option, merge Prime Earth pages with New Earth pages. At this point, this seems to be the way DC would like readers to interpret the developments from Rebirth. Its hard to interpret the following passage from Rebirth in any other way:

      "But someone outside of time watched it all happen...as our timelines reformed, someone stole ten years from us. A decade was removed like a Jenga piece...it changed everything. Heroes that were legends became novices. Bonds between them were weakened and erased. Legacies were destroyed."

      This to me is Wally West talking about seeing his home reality reformed and if Barry Allen remembered him, he would have to be Bartholomew Allen (New Earth). That said, I have no idea how you account for things like Ted Kord and Jean Loring being alive, Hank Henshaw not being the Cyborg Superman or any of the other drastic changes that were made post-Flashpoint.

      Fittingly, I think we're going to get the answer in the new Superman comics. However DC handles the difference between New Earth Superman and Prime Earth Superman should probably set the direction of the wiki.

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    • The continuity is a mess right now since DC is trying to merge the 2 previous main continuities with the current one. A big question I have is how Earth 2 fits into Rebirth especially since it is in an alternate reality albeit an alternate reality closely tied to Earth-0 and the Justice League 3000 titles since the Flash and Batgirl from that alternate future are trapped on Prime Earth right now.

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    • It would appear that the Watchmen have somehow gotten involved in this as Doctor Manhattan has made appearances in this "Rebirth." Any objections?

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    • Key word is "somehow". We don't know how exactly.

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    • Perhaps later issues might explain Doctor Manhattan's appearance since we all know that the Watchmen take place on an alternate Earth between the 1940s and the 1960s.

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    • Another major issue to work out are all of the Wildstorm and Milestone characters. How would they fit in if it turns out that Prime Earth and New Earth are the same?

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    • They're not the same.

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    • So there's a dent in my brick wall from where I started banging my head against it when Hawkworld vol 1 was published and contradicted Post-Crisis continuity so soon after COIE. It got bigger & bigger through Zero Hour, Final Crisis, 52, Flashpoint and every damn week of the New 52. I think with Rebirth, I'll finally break through. Somebody call 911. -_-

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    • Dallinturner wrote: I think that Flashpoint changed every New Earth character into a Prime Earth character, regardless of similarities and shared origins. I think the Rebirth issue started with New Earth Wally floating through the Speed Force, looking down on the Prime Earth.

      As he got closer, his memories changed to match the Prime Earth, suddenly realizing that he always had a black cousin also named Wally. When New Earth Wally finally contacted Prime Earth Barry, Barry remembered the pre-Flashpoint world for just a second. Then when he pulled New Earth Wally out of the Speed Force, he then became Prime Earth Wally. And both Wally and Barry received new Prime Earth memories.

      I think that would be the easiest way to look at this post-Rebirth world. For the most part, the New 52 continuity continues, with only a few adjustments.

      I see it the other way around. Everything in Barry's flashback was canon and Wally thinks he's the New Earth Wally West?

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    • At this point I feel we might as well just create Prime Earth pages for Wally, the now deceased Superman and rename the Superman (Clark Kent) page to Kal-El (New Earth), and just say from the evidence provided in the comic that the three Jokers are from Earth-Two, New Earth, and Prime Earth respectively for some unexplained reason. As for Dr. Manhattan and the mysterious Mr. Oz lets cross the bridge when it makes more sense.

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    • Shiplord13 wrote: At this point I feel we might as well just create Prime Earth pages for Wally, the now deceased Superman and rename the Superman (Clark Kent) page to Kal-El (New Earth), and just say from the evidence provided in the comic that the three Jokers are from Earth-Two, New Earth, and Prime Earth respectively for some unexplained reason. As for Dr. Manhattan and the mysterious Mr. Oz lets cross the bridge when it makes more sense.

      But Wally is the exact same person though... But then again, now that Barry has his memory back, he is the exact same person too.

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    • The one page we definately need to create is Prime Earth Kal-El. The two have aways been distant from each other and have interacted with the other. Plus I believe a page is in the works, right?

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    • Do we update omen's page and make the Asian superman page?

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    • Asian Superman hasn't appeared yet. Omen's page should be updated to reflect Titans Hunt.

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    • He'll probably appear this week in the Superman Rebirth to set up for his own story so we could just wait to add him and prepare.

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    • I loved the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" even as it meant saying good-bye to some stalwarts in the DC universe but all the subsequent crises other than "Zero Hour" have left me cold and here we go, yet another retcon. Not just a retcon, one that makes Marvel's newest stupidity (Cap saying "Hail Hydra") look reasonable by comparison. I'd like a retcon back to the 1990s before Dan Didio and Geoff Johns decided to start remaking the DCU every 2-3 years.

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    • Yeah the Captain America, Hail Hydra thing is pretty weird, it makes you wonder why he has fought Red Skull to death multiple times. Hopefully no DC writes do a similarly stupid idea for shock value. Like the Blue Beetle's scarab magic again even though we met the aliens who created it multiple times... oh wait.

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    • Shiplord13 wrote: Like the Blue Beetle's scarab magic again even though we met the aliens who created it multiple times... oh wait.

      Were the Reach met in the New continuity? (I haven't been keeping up.)

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    • Yes, though the origins were so it had ancient meso-American ties rather than Egyptian, with Garret and Kord out of the picture.

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    • Pretty sure they are going back to Egypt with this and will probably say that the scarab was originally special technology that got infused with magic, which is the reason it acts the way it does or something. Damn you retcons.

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    • They said ten years due to the Justice League: Origin and the first part of Action Comics being set about 5 years before 2011 and there has been five years since the start of the New 52 so yes. That equals ten years.

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    • 10 years of attempting to reinvent DC comics and relate it to modern comic audience, by erase teams' existences or history like the Justice Society, Outsiders, Birds of Prey, and Teen Titans. And replacing them with the brand new versions of the team made of characters that have no history together, before returning to the old team line up, or just recreating the team in a whole new way unrecognizable from the original. Or just creating a brand new universe for a certain team and not using said teams name at all and only using a handful of characters in a very forced and inconsistent story. Just to decide to resurrect said team back into the mainstream universe, because you feel you hit a wall with your story telling

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    • My interpretation:

      New Earth and Prime Earth are separate. Prime Earth is a different timeline from New Earth's. The only precedent for someone "remembering" a past timeline is people like Harbinger, Donna Troy, and the Flash - and this is the same kind of nonsense happening again. It doesn't make sense, but it's an exception DC has used before (and sometimes, it makes for good storytelling).

      My hope was always that Wally was hanging out in the speed force, remembering the old timeline, and that he'd come back. I guess I got my wish? Kinda?

      The existence of New Earth Superman on Prime Earth makes it clear the two are at least functionally separate. They are the same characters, just from alternate timelines. If this were good time travel logic, New Earth Superman would have been completely erased, but this is DC logic, and it doesn't always follow real logic. Convergence confirms that all DC Universes co-exist regardless of whether the timeline was erased (mostly because they were bottled up right before they were erased???).

      So, I'm not sure what they're doing with the New 52 versions of characters, but I do think we were right to separate the pages (eventually).

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    • DalekSupreme13 wrote: The continuity is a mess right now since DC is trying to merge the 2 previous main continuities with the current one. A big question I have is how Earth 2 fits into Rebirth especially since it is in an alternate reality albeit an alternate reality closely tied to Earth-0 and the Justice League 3000 titles since the Flash and Batgirl from that alternate future are trapped on Prime Earth right now.

      Well that explains a lot in the Batgirl comics.

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    • Just wait from the looks of it Earth 2 isn't even going to matter since they acknowledged that the Justice Society existed on Prime Earth, if we believe Old Man Johnny Thunder.

      Which I don't mind because Earth 2 is just weird and slightly confusing when it comes to whats going on.

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    • They did a time skip after Convergence ended, so most of what they've been doing in Earth 2: Society is explaining what happened during the time skip.

      We still don't know what is going on with Justice League 3000. Lady Styx implies that the female Flash is different from all the other speedsters in the multiverse and will have a key role in what is to come.

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    • I meant before that with the whole Earth's ends stuff it just seemed rushed and forced to me.

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    • They wanted Earth 2: World's End to finish at the exact same time as New 52: Futures End, Superman: Doomed and Multiversity due to the fact that all 4 of those series and storylines are supposed to lead directly into the Convergence event. They used the regular Earth 2 series to add depth to all the stuff going on in the Earth 2: World's End series since World's End had to be fast paced in order for it to end the week before Convergence started.

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    • From what I understand, is that this Wally West wasn't from New Earth, but was stuck in the Speed Force for some reason, and he was able to witness the first Crisis, Infinite Crisis, etc. And for whatever reason, Dr. M created Prime Earth by altering the universe during Flashpoint and stole ten years for memories from the DC Characters, thus making them forget Wally.

      As for Donna, I just hope they retconn her New 52 origin somehow. I don't even care how, they could retconn the whole Finch run and I'd be happy.

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    • I'm actually okay with Donna's New 52 origin as they were trying to do something new with her origin story instead of reusing the same origin that has been used so many times before. It was interesting seeing her as sort of an Anti-Wonder Woman and now she has taken on a mantle similar to her new mentor's as the new goddess of fate for the Olympians. The Titans Hunt series makes her backstory ridiculously complicated since it says she has a history with the Titans even though she wasn't even born yet by the time it was all supposed to have happened.

      As for Wally West, it is supposed to be the New Earth Wally West as they seem to be implying that Prime Earth is actually New Earth, but with its timeline altered by Doctor Manhattan thus explaining why everyone is younger and certain events didn't happen while others did happen, but on a different date then before. Essentially DC is trying to combine the New Earth and Prime Earth continuities. This is probably meant to clean up some of the mess left by Convergence as both New Earth and Prime Earth are both supposed to be Earth-0.

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    • If it is New Earth Wally, why is he Kid Flash? It doesn't make sense in the timeline of New Earth.

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    • Well the ten years were taken from the Titans, when he was still Kid Flash.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: If it is New Earth Wally, why is he Kid Flash? It doesn't make sense in the timeline of New Earth.

      Okay, remember how Flashpoint rewrote the timeline of New Earth and turned it into what we call Prime Earth?

      The Wally of Rebirth is the post-flashpoint version of the character. He had his timeline rewritten just like everything/one else. He just remembers the pre-flashpoint timeline because of... speed force illogical plot mechanic.

      If it weren't for convergence, we would never see any of the New Earth characters again (as in, pre-flashpoint versions). Wally is not the result of Convergence.

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    • So we're moving other Wally to Wally II?

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    • Hatebunny wrote:

      Tupka217 wrote: If it is New Earth Wally, why is he Kid Flash? It doesn't make sense in the timeline of New Earth.

      Okay, remember how Flashpoint rewrote the timeline of New Earth and turned it into what we call Prime Earth?

      The Wally of Rebirth is the post-flashpoint version of the character. He had his timeline rewritten just like everything/one else. He just remembers the pre-flashpoint timeline because of... speed force illogical plot mechanic.

      If it weren't for convergence, we would never see any of the New Earth characters again (as in, pre-flashpoint versions). Wally is not the result of Convergence.

      We even have characters from pre-zero hour running around as the Hal Jordan version of Parallax from before Zero Hour is running around in the Green Lantern and Telos series.

      Wouldn't the 10 years of removed history also include the years that Wally was Flash due to the time differential between the comic books and our world since the passage of time goes slower in comics in comparison to real life.

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    • Hatebunny wrote: The Wally of Rebirth is the post-flashpoint version of the character. He had his timeline rewritten just like everything/one else. He just remembers the pre-flashpoint timeline because of... speed force illogical plot mechanic.

      That explanation kinda makes sense in Titans Rebirth as well, as it shows Wally tranferring those memories to the Titans via "Speed Force". But I'm starting to think that those are not Pre-Flashpoint memories, but instead their true memories, which were taken/erased.

      However, in Flash Rebirth #1, Barry calls Wally "Flash", which is confusing. Is it just because Wally is too old for being Kid Flash? Or is there some connection to Wally's timeline as Flash in NE?

      I say wait before moving pages around. At least until some actual explanation is given.

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    • SforHope wrote:

      Hatebunny wrote: The Wally of Rebirth is the post-flashpoint version of the character. He had his timeline rewritten just like everything/one else. He just remembers the pre-flashpoint timeline because of... speed force illogical plot mechanic.

      That explanation kinda makes sense in Titans Rebirth as well, as it shows Wally tranferring those memories to the Titans via "Speed Force". But I'm starting to think that those are not Pre-Flashpoint memories, but instead their true memories, which were taken/erased.

      However, in Flash Rebirth #1, Barry calls Wally "Flash", which is confusing. Is it just because Wally is too old for being Kid Flash? Or is there some connection to Wally's timeline as Flash in NE?

      I say wait before moving pages around. At least until some actual explanation is given.

      There was a point in the New Earth continuity were both Wally and Barry were using the flash alias but with slightly different colored suits as Wally's was a darker red then Barry's. The explanation for this was that after Barry returned he felt it wouldn't be right to force Wally to give up the Flash mantle as he had more then proved he was worthy of it in his absence and decided to share it with him in the same way he shares the mantle with Jay.

      The continuity of the Tians and Flash characters is a mess right now as characters (Donna Troy) are supposed to have done stuff before they were even born and how pre-flashpoint Wally's relationship to Iris is also unclear as she already has a nephew named Wally West in the New 52.

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    • DalekSupreme13 wrote: I'm actually okay with Donna's New 52 origin as they were trying to do something new with her origin story instead of reusing the same origin that has been used so many times before. It was interesting seeing her as sort of an Anti-Wonder Woman and now she has taken on a mantle similar to her new mentor's as the new goddess of fate for the Olympians. The Titans Hunt series makes her backstory ridiculously complicated since it says she has a history with the Titans even though she wasn't even born yet by the time it was all supposed to have happened.

      As for Wally West, it is supposed to be the New Earth Wally West as they seem to be implying that Prime Earth is actually New Earth, but with its timeline altered by Doctor Manhattan thus explaining why everyone is younger and certain events didn't happen while others did happen, but on a different date then before. Essentially DC is trying to combine the New Earth and Prime Earth continuities. This is probably meant to clean up some of the mess left by Convergence as both New Earth and Prime Earth are both supposed to be Earth-0.

      Remember, Rucka's Wonder Woman is titled "The Lies" and runs parallel to "Year One". Donna's New 52 could be one of those "lies" and could be explored in "Year One".

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    • You know the best part of this is, we still have bunch of Rebirth stuff to cover coming up and what exists and what doesn't

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    • We really can't come up with a realistic way to deal with the continuity issues that Rebirth has caused until we can get exposition for what has transpired. The Rebirth event is going to last for 2 years and so far we are only 1 month into it. It probably won't start to make sense until we are 1 year into the event at the earliest.

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    • The Three Joker thing is one of those things I hope they cover soon

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    • I think the 3 Jokers are supposed to be the Earth-One, New Earth, and Prime Earth versions. This goes back to the idea that the Earth-One, New Earth, and Prime Earth continuities are all supposed to take place in the same reality which DC has been pushing since the Darkseid War with Metron saying that he and the Anti-Monitor are the exact same versions that existed before the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

      This is also further enforced with Wally's claim that Prime Earth is actually New Earth, but with 10 years of its history removed from the timeline. Again, DC's continuity has been a mess since Convergence and Rebirth, so far is only making it more complicated.

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    • will we expect to see any of the old titans? We got Omen so its possible!

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    • It ain't a Titans Party til Gnaark shows up!

      Wait. Who would want a narc at their party???

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    • Right now I am excited for the new Titans series, but also for the return of the actual Justice Society. The Earth 2 versions are okay, but I always preferred them within the main universe with all the other Justice League

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    • With the current continuity, this is my current theory that Prime Earth is its own but there were survivors from the other universe as Wally did say that there were others still trapped. What if not only Wally had come out of a previous timeline but other characters did too. I'm not to sure about Donna to much but that will probably be explored in the Wonder Woman title. Uhhh sorry for the poor grammar I'm just not really bothering with the wording of sentences. Ummm... I don't think one of the three Jokers is from new earth due to that Joker being killed be Earth 2 Batman in Convergence. Is that still a thing or is it not. Some of the continuity got a bit messy after convergence. I also reckon the reason why there is multiple Jokers on an alternative reason instead of the multiple universe theory is that there are side effects of supposed long term usage of those acid pools (can't remember their names). Anyway that's my theory so yeah...

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    • In all honesty who knows with the all powerful and emotionless former human in apparent control of the universe, I feel he can pick and choose what he wants to happen and what he doesn't eg killing Pandora and Owlman when they got to close to the truth.

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    • I wonder if it's too much to hope that some of the others still trapped might be the Earth-247 Legion. I'm not holding my breath but it'd be nice.

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    • There is a Legion hinted at in the Rebirth Comic, with Saturn Girl, but that could be any of the three, but who knows keep your fingers crossed and see.

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    • A FANDOM user
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